I am a hardcore Christian, and since I don’t believe in the universe being created by the big bang, I believe it was created by God.
But, if it says in the bible that God has no beginning and no end, but He would HAVE to be either ‘created’ or come into existence SOMEHOW. How can you best explain this?
Also, if He created the universe and all that came with it, would that mean He would have created time itself? Well, if THAT’S true, then what came before time? Pure nothingness? But then how would God have MADE time if there WAS no time in the first place? No time means no movement or creation, right?
And if all of the aforementioned is true/somewhat true, how was God himself created if he created time, even though he had no beginning or no end? I mean, He had to have been brought into existence SOMEHOW, as everything must, otherwise it simply… Doesn’t exist.
Asked by John
I hope you can understand all of that, I ask this question because it’s just too much for my brain to comprehend.
Filed under: Humanity Big Questions, Religion and Science Big Questions, Theoretical Physics Big Questions, Unanswered Big Questions
It’s a bit odd that you say you don’t believe in the big bang, but believe that God created the Universe, despite fully understanding all the reasons why it can’t be true. I think you need to step back from your beliefs for a bit and rationally review them without your “faith goggles” on in order to figure out what you really think.
The simple answer to your question is that God doesn’t exist but you need to reach that conclusion rather than me force it on you.
I think that the human mind as of yet cannot comprehend that which is out of our sphere of reality. If a fish in the sea had self-awareness could they understand the reality above the surface.
Time in relation to ourselves is a man-made constuct and it suits us to have it linear and always in one direction. We don’t know that this self-imposed law of phyics applies universally
My point being is that we try to answer questions from the inside looking out.
Perhaps the human brain will one day evolve (if you believe in evolution) to be able to comprehend reality from the outside.
Mans knowledge grows exponentially and one day if we do get a peek at what we are really about then this knowledge will be added to and also grow.
More to the point of the question, is God a man-made ideal, an anthromorphic personnification of mans one true figurehead. Like Time did we create this ideal to structure and order what would otherwise appear to be chaos.
Science V Religion is an age-old struggle with two sets of ideals trying to find the same answer from diametrically opposed sides.
There is one view on God that could mean we are all correct. The universe was created as scientists describe and that God is a manifestation of the collective consciousness of humankind. Whether it is a miracle healing or a sinner being stoned to death these beliefs can have a profound affect and to the person healed or the person killed may as well be true.
My point in summary is should we concentrate more on improving the workings of the machine we are in and less on how it works and who made it
God did not come into existence, He has always existed. The notions of beginnings and endings only apply to finite things. Since God is infinite, He has no beginning and no ending. I understand that this may be difficult for all of us to grasp, but realize that our tool in this endeavor is a finite brain. We are simply attempting to measure what is outside the universe with a yardstick. And speaking of being outside the universe, please understand that God exists outside of our natural world, in fact, He surrounds our natural world in all dimensions (length, width, volume, time, etc.). Thus, He is not only infinite, but supernatural, therefore existing beyond all the natural laws that we understand or haven’t even imagined yet. I’ll also leave you with one last thought on the notion of time- C.S. Lewis once gave an example, and I grossly paraphrase here, that when writing a story the author may come to point in the story where a character he has created is about to take some action. However, just as the author is about to write what action the character is about to take, he decides to have a cup of tea. So he puts the pen down, makes and enjoys the tea. Later, the author comes back to his story and writes about what action the character takes. For the character in the story, time never stopped. He simply went from action to action. However, for the author, who exists outside the timeline of the story, a great deal of time (at least enough to make and enjoy the tea) occurred between the development of the actions of the character. While Lewis himself indicated that this is not a perfect example, it does give us a peek at how things may exist outside of our own perceptions of reality. Thanks, and may God bless you.
Simply answer: God doesn’t exist, therefor never came into existance.
Answer for the religious folk: God never came into existance, He has just always been.
I hope that answers your question both rationally and religiously, so you can choose which answer you want.
John, ignore the closed-minded people.
Troy answered your question best, but to put it simply: God has always existed, but God exists without time. We as time-bound objects cannot comprehend timelessness (A.K.A. Infinity).
This is also a major reason for the closed-minded “God does not exist” theories – which don’t make sense.
If energy can’t be created,then how did God come into existence ?
Re;Robert noel
I put in my previous submission that I believe a god-like force may exist as result of a human collective consciousness.
But if we are to believe there is a God in the traditional sense of the word then you’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head and got to the nitty gritty of the argument. A famous scientist and astronomer (Edwin Hubble I think) was once asked ‘how can you study and believe what you do about the universe and still be devoutly religious’. His answer was ‘Science can tell us what happened as far back as the big bang but not what happened just before.
If god is an all-powerful omnipotent deity then surely phsical laws that apply to us wouldnot to him/her as he/she is the creator.As in the C.S.Lewis analogy that would be like writing fiction and then having to obey the rules you’ve just created.
I think eventually science will answer almost every question though whether that will leave us more fulfilled and better for it is another issue. With no mystery,mysticism, spirituality etc then life might seem more pre-determined and have less purpose. My favourite quote that pertains to this discussion is;
” Sometimes it is better to travel in hope than to arrive “
Re: Robert Noel
I’m not sure if I understand your question but I will give it a shot.
God is a spirit, not a collection of energy. Energy refers to something that exists in our material world. Energy and matter are the same thing, just in a different form- thus the conservation law you are alluding to in your question. God, as a spirit, exists in a supernatural world. We cannot equate one with the other.
Re: Troy T
If God is supernatural and exists outside of our reality..How can we know this? I know demanding truth or empirical evidence is seen to be denying faith but even religions have changed over history due to changing data ie, discoveries that have disproved previous beliefs eg, Copernicus
Ok, I believe in a God-like force created by the collective consciousness of all sapient beings. This force can shape destinies and affect the physical world either for good or bad depending on the perspective you are looking at it from.
Without getting all Quantum and Causal my doctrine can be summed up in one statement..’Be Nice’
To me this sounds like the basic tenet of most religions but to some I should be damned for not believing it precisely as they do.
This is where human intervention corrupts the original message and masses are manipulated and subjugated ie; the crusades, the spanish inquisition etc,etc
Ultimately we all end up at the end of the same path and I try to enjoy the journey without getting to wrapped up about whats at the end
Good questions Steve.
We can know that God exists and know a lot about Him.
The reason that we can know that He exists is that while God does exist outside our reality He also exists inside our reality. This is because He is, by definition, omnipresent. We can see two prime examples of Him coming into contact with our reality: Creation and the birth of Christ. We can also know that there is a Creator simply because there is a creation. How often have you seen a painting that did not have a painter or a sculpture that was not made by a sculptor.
In regards to knowing Him more fully (not just knowing He exists) that is where developing a relationship with Him through first acceptance of Christ as savior and then growth through prayer, Bible study, and fellowship with other Christians come into play.
In regards to your point that religions change throughout time and due to new “scientific” evidences, you are exactly right. However, we must distinguish between religion and relationship (with God). These can be two totally different things. The former meant to butress the latter. Christ Himself speaks to this point when He describes a man building a house on unsolid ground. Sometimes, religion can be highly influenced by man in all the wrong ways. You gave some examples of this. However, Jesus said that if the foundation is laid upon Him then that foundation is strong. If you look at those examples that you gave, in each case man usurped the authority of the God. When we do that, bad things happen. I truly don’t mean to preach here, but this is an important point. Too often people want to throw out the baby (a personal relationship with God) with the bathwater (religion).
The concern that I have with your belief regarding a god-like force created by a collective unconciousness is that, if you look at that closely, it seems very man-centered and really borders on idolatry. In a sense, we are making our own god in your belief system. Again, when we try to usurp God’s rightful power or place, bad things tend to happen, even if our intentions were good to begin with.
As far as your statement that we all end up on the same path, well, unfortunately we don’t. Look at some of the major villans in history and you can see that they have gone way off the reservation. The Bible teaches that there is only one way- through Christ. Now I know that this can be seen as very intolerant, but in truth it is not. But that’s a discussion for another day.
Hope I didn’t offend. Just give what I wrote a thought or two and I will continue to think on what you wrote too.
God bless you.
Troy T.
Re: Troy T
Thanks for addressing my submission and am absolutely not offended as I humbly think of myself as open-minded and welcome views from all perspectives.
Likewise, please don’t offended by any of my opinions as I am questioning the (for want of a better word) ‘structure’ of these said beliefs and not the faith of the person who believes it.
You mentioned the painting and the statue and until fairly recently this was a very strong argument for Creation. As with Paley’s Watchmaker analogy the irreducible complexity of the item surely can only indicate intelligent design. But, as you agreed, technological advancements are changing views on traditional beliefs and it is now widely accepted that (for instance) the Eye can have evolved and there are many biological examples of these stages of evolution. Again,this is a whole other area of debate and too broad a subject to cover here.
A point we both converge on is the difference between Religion and Relationship with God.
Religion, in my opinion, is the structuring and ordering of a set of beliefs or ideals. In a disorderly, violent or chaotic soceity this needs to be backed up with strong ideals. Also there have to be repercussions for straying from the correct path ie, eternal damnation etc. Churches and places of Worship are the ideal gathering point to be instructed and to learn.
You said that it is man who usurped the authority of God but in one of the examples I gave (the Crusades) it was the Pope who passed a decree that Knights who had to kill under the banner of the cross would still welcomed in heaven.
The reason I mention this is at this point in history the Pope’s word was as good as Gods and for the lowly subject or esteemed Knight was the only validated contact they had with their maker. In retrospect it was a shrewd political move and like moves can still be seen in todays soceity.
Where as our ‘Relationship with God’ is surely, that which we take away with us from these places of Worship. It is how we then interact with others and whether we have learned from these lessons.
We are both singing from the same song sheet here but my belief is more self-development based. It can be argued that how can you learn without a teacher but to me, historically, the teachers are prone to fault and error (being only human) and over generations these errors grow exponentially.
Personally, my self-development techniques are not idolatrous but are also not monotheistic.
It is more a combination of Questioning ‘How can I become a better person’ and applying this to everyday life and hopefully learning from the results. As I said in a previous submission, this is what most religions boil down to. Obviously this ideal wouldnot restore order to certain soceities ie, the war torn Middle East. But Western “Civilisation” has, I think, progressed enough to incorporate Spirituality and the need for empirical evidence of science.
Being inquisitive and questioning was once frowned on and in Mediaeval times may have got you burned at the stake. But again this was man manipulating the rules for other purposes and detracts from the original message.
Also I wasnt clear on the term “the end of the same path”. I meant ultimately death is inevitable and the universal leveller from Bishop to Burgler. Life is the path we all take and how we do is down to our choice.
Would love to ramble on some more but must depart, would love to hear your comments
Regards
I agree with you when you said that we have progressed enough to “incorporate spirituality and the need for empirical evidence of science” to a certain extent. Proverbs 1:7 says “That the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” This is the right equation put in the right order, with respect to God coming prior to knowledge. In our modern world (and arguably since Darwin) we have, as a culture, flipped the two, placing our quest for knowledge before our respect for God. We are moving so fast that some scientists even talk about a singularity occurring in which our knowledge will outstrip our humanity. This is not anything new. There are Biblical examples of mankind attempting to out do God-the Tower of Babel being one.
What I think that we have to realize is this: science, technology, and even our ability to reason are tools and no more. Like any tool, they can be used to fix a number of things and solve a number of questions. However, you wouldn’t build a house with only a screwdriver (at least not one that I would want to live in). Now take those tools and use them in accordance to a specific blueprint (a structure as you mentioned) and in the right way and you can build a very nice tri-level with a Jacuzzi.
Just keep in mind, though, that not only is a blueprint important, but the foundation for that house (as I indicated previously) is important also. That foundation is having the right relationship with God.
My challenge to you: read the Bible and pray about it. Read it even if you have read it all before. Why? Because the Word says that it will not come back to you void. Pray about it even if you don’t necessarily believe in the same God the Bible speaks of. Why? Because the Word says that if you knock the door will be opened.
God bless open-minded people like yourself,
Troy T.
Answer is quite simple- its up to U u want to believe in him or not.
1) If u DONT believe in HIM, then believe in urself than on some mystical power u have never seen…..
2) If u believe in HIM, then its provides u some sort of Confrontation that someone is with u…. ( Now its said that God is within us= we are indirectly believing in ourself !! )
See, human mind is very tender and flickering…. thus we constantly require some sort of STABLE support system to help us in every thing we do.. Now ppl who dont believe in God, does that mean nothing good happens to them? and vice verse ppl who believe in HIM, are they always HAPPY, SUCCESSFUL??
Its only BELIEF we have that gives us power to move on.. and like i said in beginning.. ITS UP TO U TO BELIEVE IN HIM OR BELIEVE IN URSELF…. EITHER WAY U HAVE TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING..
Hi Troy,
Well you offered the challenge but I didn’t pick up the gauntlet and haven’t read the bible since.
But then my argument (or debate sounds nicer) is the validity of the writings. Not I hasten to add the message or the teachings as these are fundamentally good and beneficial for soceity.
As soceities evolve it is only a matter of time before a work or tome of this sort would arise ( I say tome because if all the hidden and disallowed books and scriptures were included it would be much larger and more encompassing )
The zeitgeist of the time meant many different people were all working to the same goal. A more modern analogy is the “Steam-Engine Era” and even Darwin wasn’t the pioneer he was lauded to be as again many people were working on the same subject. What he possessed was a remarkably analytical mind and as was able to organise and structure all this new data into a precise theory.
It is my belief that something similar happened with the Bible.
Again its then back to belief, did these writers have a holy visitation that then inspired these works or was it human or socialogical influence ie,surrounding influences, the politics of the time, a need for structure etc.
(Bear with me on this bit)
If you have ever watched a shoal of fish or flock of birds, notice the way they all seem change direction at the same time. Technology( slow-motion capture ) has shown they do this by tracking the animals nearest to them and changing direction fractionally after them. Now, is that not us or soceity,
Although we are more like sheep. If the person in front jumps then so must we.
Broadly speaking everyperson in a soceity is affected by the same stimuli and it is entirely plausible that the Bible came about because of a need for it to be there.
We are in agreement about the teachings and message that comes from the Bible but what I question is how it came into existence.
If it could be proven to be an entirely human construction then would it make it any less right or potent. I don’t think so.
Without getting too philosophical, if a person believes something strongly enough and this belief causes a direct outcome because of it (good or bad depending from perspective) then to all intents and purposes it may as well be true. If that belief is non-harmless then why is it right that someone of a different belief can stand in judgement of them.
Religions over the years have become more tolerant and its my belief that they will curve back to meet science as they once did many millenia ago.
Regards
Steve
it was a big bang what do you think happened. im not catholic so i shouldnt say he made it but anyway i dont care he didnt
God as the “Creator”, and every other “god” throughout human history was made up to explain the things that humans could not understand. They couldn’t understand why there were stars, they couldn’t understand why there was lightning, they couldn’t understand weather patterns, they couldn’t understand why things happened or how they happened. This is the same as how they believed that there was nothing before little more than 4,000 years ago. We now know better. We know the Earth is round, not flat. We know what stars are made of. We know that there are brainwaves. We know much more than our ancestors knew. “God” was their way of explaining all of the wonderful laws of physics and nature that they didn’t know how to explain.
As for the “Big Bang”… Who knows? There are so many things outside of our understanding. There are so many things we don’t yet know, and many more things we may never know. In our logical thoughts, something can’t come from nothing. But we could be wrong, just as humans were wrong about the sun and moon revolving around the earth. It amazes me that people can dismiss all of what science has proved in favor of a “God” for which there is absolutely no proof of at all. If humans were right about God’s existence, why then did they believe the world was only a few thousand years old? Since when do we take into account what people said 2,000 years ago? They believed humans were not alive until the moment of birth, when they took their first breath. We now know that a fetus has a heartbeat and brainwaves, and can feel pain. We know that a fetus is in fact alive in the womb. We also know that sacrificing a cow or a goat is not going to do anything at all to change the weather. We know that droughts aren’t caused by people doing evil things. We know that if we start out in any direction on the planet and keep heading in that same direction, we will eventually end up where we started. Why continue to insist that God is real when nothing else about the world that was taught 2,000 years ago is true? That’s what really doesn’t make any sense. The Big Bang makes more sense than why humans insist there is a god.
Dear VeganBabe,
Interesting post. I agree with you that we know a lot more about stars and brainwaves and lightning, etc. than our ancestors knew. I think you are overstating things a little, however, when you say that nothing taught 2000 years ago is still true. The Babylonians and Egyptians both had Math around 1900 B.C. Aristotle’s concepts of Logic date back at least to 40 B.C. Both math and logic are used today and do not vary significantly from the original.
Also, following your logic, we, as a civilized and logical society, should have thrown our belief in God out the door by now. If that is so, why hasn’t it happened? Haven’t we evolved past believing in God?
Maybe we are just stubborn. Maybe we are just stupid and want to hold on to our old fashioned beliefs that make us feel warm and cozy when it is dark outside.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
The truth is that maybe we don’t know near as much as we think we do. You yourself said, “Who knows?” regarding the Big Bang. Maybe what we are dealing with here is really a matter of vanity.
Is it not just as ridiculous to think that, given our natural prejudices, proclivities to try to prove ourselves right and ignore evidence, the fallibility of our tools, measures, and procedures, and the multitude of distractions that we have to deal with in our modern world, we can actually grasp a real measure of truth? In the last 2000 years we have come to know a lot, but what have we really learned?
We still have fire, flood, and famine. We still have infanticide, injustice, and insecurity. We still oppose our neighbors, ridicule strangers, and seek to destroy ourselves.
Maybe we should have heeded some advice from 2000 years ago when Christ told us to love one another, turn the other cheek, and seek to know God’s heart. As a whole, the world has operated apart from this teaching.
But then again…we know that the earth orbits around the sun.
The question is what do our hearts orbit?